J Basser: 0:01

Welcome folks to another episode of the Exposed Vet Productions broadcast. Today is the 17th day of April 2025. We're going to discuss a couple of issues today dealing with exposures. I've got my co-host today. It's the one and only Bethany Spangenberg. How are you doing, bethany?

Bethanie Spangenberg: 0:21

Great, how are you?

J Basser: 0:23

I'm doing okay. We're in Old hillbilly today. We took a little bit of a break. We've been discussing the past several months on different types of DBQs and different issues and elements that the DBQs are written for. We just noted one. We've spent a whole series on the neurological system, which is pretty important to do, but tonight we want to get back to basics on us, because we are exposed to it and we do focus solely upon exposures. You know, tonight we're going to discuss the PACT Act, tara I'm about to cover some stuff on asbestos and Bethany's in here, because Bethany, she owns a company called Valor for Vet and she does a lot of IMOs, but she's also an accredited VA appeals agent and so she knows how to put the bread and bologna together on the same sandwich.

J Basser: 1:17

But I want to start off with the PAC-TAC. Bethany, I mean personally. I know they have a lot of claims issued on the PACT Act. There's a lot of folks that are on the registries and all this other stuff. But what's the latest information on the PACT Act? What does it entail? I know it covers exposures like burn pits and things like that, but there's a whole lot more in detail involved with it.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 1:41

Yeah, so there's actually.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 1:44

The main focus is the toxic exposures. It broadened the eligibility for veterans who are eligible for care at the VA system. It opened that window to combat veterans to 10 years, which previously it was a shorter term. It mandated that all all veterans go through a toxic exposure screening. So a lot of veterans received phone calls and asked them about questions that may have exposed or something like to identify things that they were exposed to in the military, such as the asbestos that you had previously mentioned. But it also opens up about burn pits, oil fires, radiation, all different kinds of possibilities, and so they're trying to collect that data in order to narrow down some of the research that they're doing. And I think the biggest, I guess, praise that it's receiving is that it really acknowledged that veterans are exposed to toxins more than the typical civilian and they're starting to study those more readily and recognize some of those cancers. They opened up some presumptive medical conditions related to Agent Orange and Gulf War and Camp Lejeune. So the main focus was for the PACT Act was primarily the toxic exposures.

J Basser: 3:21

All right, that's just a. I mean then, also treat toxic exposures out of any organism that is toxic to their exposure basis. The vet can file a claim for it. Of course they have to investigate certain things, but still, I've been talking to a couple of vets recently. One guy's got some lung issues and he was open to go. I think his claim got denied and we were discussing the issue. But I mean it's very windy over there. You know, in the desert, and what's the desert made out of, you know, kind of reminds me of Sam Kennison, you know back when he was talking about his desert message and his little spilling for his jokes. The wind blows all the time and you get sand in the air. Where does that sand go? Up your nose, in your lungs. And guys, sand is something called silica, right yeah, and basically it's glass and so that gets in your lungs. Would that be part of like interstitial lung disease?

Bethanie Spangenberg: 4:23

Look who we have.

J Basser: 4:26

Well, Senor Cobb, how are you?

Ray Cobb: 4:29

Yes, I feel you got on.

J Basser: 4:32

Hey, okay, well, we're glad you could make it, ray, but would that be considered interstitial lung disease, bethany?

Bethanie Spangenberg: 4:41

Yeah, I'm glad you're here. Yes.

J Basser: 4:43

Okay, yes, it can develop into interstit.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 4:44

You're here, yes, okay, yes, it can develop a deadness long disease.

J Basser: 4:46

Okay, Okay, so that's what you know. We're discussing with him and he filed his claim and got denied. So I told him to reach out and get a good IMO and get his records. So maybe he'll call the right company here very soon and get it done.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 5:02

Hey, you know, one thing that I think I have a good appreciation for, mainly when it comes to the clinical side of things, is because I have focused on occupational medicine since 2015. And I love occupational medicine. Typically, what I see in occupational medicine, which is kind of different from other fields of medicine, is that typically your workers want to get better, your patients want to get better. They're motivated, they want to get back out earning money and being independent and not being kind of slowed down. Typically your occupational health patients. They're younger, and then there's a lot of safety measures that go into occupational duties. So there's a lot of safety training for lifting mechanisms, a lot of prevention, because OSHA does not like high injuries in the workplace and they can actually come back and find the workplace for their OSHA injuries. So one thing that we did or that we do in occupational medicine we do periodic health assessments just like they do in occupational medicine. We do periodic health assessments just like they do in the military. We do pre-employment physicals, we make them do pulmonary function tests, and so we can see a lot of things that an individual may have, like if they go in with COPD but they're trying to wear a respirator. Those two don't get along because you're not getting good oxygen in. So looking and reading a lot about the PFTs and understanding the environment they're in, you can understand how these different environments and the military can impact their duties as well.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 6:38

When I think of respiratory conditions and occupational health, there's one particular patient that I will never forget because he was so young. He was in his 20s and he worked in a pottery factory and that kid did not wear the appropriate breathing, he wore more like a paper mask rather than what he was supposed to be wearing and his pulmonary function test was terrible. And I again just like sand, those are large, large particulate matter and that's going straight into the lungs. The lungs don't recover like your skin or like other parts of the body, and that particulate matter creates scarring in the lungs that the body can't turn over and recover from. So a lot of your lung damage that occurs is more on a permanent basis. That scarring makes the tissue harder. The oxygen doesn't want to pass through that scar tissue.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 7:39

And here this kid was at 28 years old with this terrible pulmonary function test and I think I lectured that kid for like 30 minutes. Like I know, you're young, you don't understand. You have to protect your lungs. You have to, otherwise you need to find a new job, because he wasn't going to make it. I mean, this was, you know, five, six years ago, but I don't know where he's at now, but at the time it was very striking to see.

J Basser: 8:09

That's good, I mean. But you were discussing masks. Yes, Back in the day 70s, late 70s, early 80s, they give us an opportunity and option to do certain sampling of asbestos with a certain 3M8710 mask and at the time it was the biggest and the best they had, you know, and I came out to study years later if I could find it saying that the mask was about worthless, especially for asbestos particles. So, you know, somebody comes up and you got a claim and says, well, you wore a mask, Well you, for asbestos particles. Yep, you know somebody comes up and you've got a claimant and says well, you wore a mask, Well, you didn't wear a mask, you wore a Band-Aid Because, I mean, the big fibers won't get you but the small ones will and that's what kills you.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 9:05

And that's that glass-type concept getting into the lungs and scarring the lungs. And what they found about asbestos is that it's not just like you know, it's just it's not the person exposed. It's not just the person that's exposed that gets the damage, because it stays on your clothes and then you take it home and then now you're ruffling all those fibers into the air in the home and other people are getting exposed to it as well. So it's not just the person that's there, it's maybe even the laundry, people at the employment that are dealing with it, or people at home.

J Basser: 9:37

What happened was that back in the early days, when they first realized that it was God's great gift of insulation, they mined African ambrosite in Africa and the workers would go down to the mines and they would go ahead and they would mine the ore and whatever and get it out of the ground and they would send it over to the processing facilities. These guys would handle it and they would, you know, they would mix it up and things like that. These guys would get up and done for work and they'd go home and they'd go sit down and their kids would come jump on their lap, the wives would give them hugs and kisses and, from what I understand, the entire factory died in just a matter of time.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 10:13

Yeah.

J Basser: 10:14

So it's serious True story and so you know that's kind of like an oh crap moment. You know what happened here. You know well what happened here is this stuff is toxic, especially after an ambrosite, because it's basically the smallest fiber asbestos and they use it in a lot of insulation and a lot of buds and things like that, and once it breaks up we're talking manute fibers that get in your lungs and it gets everywhere else too. It can get in your throat, you can get it in your kidneys. It's not your best friend.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 10:47

It's bad. A lot of the toxins tend to migrate to the kidneys and things that are ingested typically migrate to the kidneys. Obviously, things that you inhale are going to stick to the lungs, but things that are ingested, they tend to get stuck in the kidneys during the clearance process.

J Basser: 11:05

Well, you tell you do you know you're about as best as you get some of the kidneys during the clearance process. Well, you tell you do you know you're about as best as you get some of the stuff in your throat and you take a drink. It's going to your kidneys, you know, and you're sitting there down down the line, but we'll touch on that in a minute. As far as that, I mean it's you know, exposures. I guess the biggest effect in the way you contact exposures has to be either through the skin or the lungs, right?

Bethanie Spangenberg: 11:33

Primarily yeah.

J Basser: 11:35

Yeah, so no. For example, chemicals like certain gases. The VX or GB, it's lung or skin, and no, vx is skin. Gb has actually more in the lungs because you know it's an inhalant. It's a very thin material and of course you don't want to be. I only know two people that's been exposed to it and one of them is still alive, barely, but he was exposed to VX.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 12:05

Now can you explain what VX is?

J Basser: 12:09

Well, sarin gas is GB Okay, that's the code and VX is derivative of the sarin gas. Only difference is it's kind of what do you call it? They filter it down and what they do is they add another chemical to it, like an oil-based thing. They make it a lot thicker, so it's got a thicker viscosity, so when you're exposed to it it hangs on longer and it doesn't have the traumatic effects of the sarin gas, because the sarin gas will cause you to rip your eyeballs out, and this one here is a little bit longer lasting, slower death.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 12:50

So do you want to?

J Basser: 12:51

go ahead.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 12:53

Why don't you talk about Project Shad a little bit Okay?

J Basser: 12:59

Put on my thinking cap here. Back in the 1960s there was a secret project At the time it was a secret and it was a Navy and Army combination project called Project 112 Shad. Project 112 was the Army side, project Shad was the Navy side, project Chad was the Navy side. And what they did? They wanted to do a bunch of testing to see how certain biological agents, chemical agents and other things affected our troops. So each test had a specific name.

J Basser: 13:44

I can stay with Elkhunt. Elkhunt 1 started in 1964 in Alaska, just after the old big earthquake, and so this group of folks went out into the boonies about 30 miles from their base and they built a little camp and it's Elkhunt right on the Gershwin River. And so they built these little quonset huts and they had all this stuff and everybody had their uniforms and they'd go out on marches, out in the field and do stuff and as they were going, planes would fly over and spray them and about once every other week they'd take them back into town, which is 30 miles, and go through a bunch of medical tests. All the records were sealed but they had all kinds of stuff. I know they had certain agents like maybe Agent Orange, if I can get this word right, facilius Barbie Called the skin irritation.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 14:42

I'm not sure.

J Basser: 14:44

Yeah, and then they spread it on the land grounds, just all kind of crazy stuff, you know. And of course it was all been classified. A lot has been declassified by now, but there's only 5,000 people involved in the test and the Navy had very similar issues, but they would go by and spread the ships and the stuff, and the Granville Hall was one of the ships that they used for the test and and the Granville Hall was one of the ships that they used for the test, and out of these 5,000 people there's not very many left alive today. Some of the medical doctors, some of the scientists involved, they're all dead from it and so it's. They didn't recognize that they should have presumptuous for these vets but they didn't do it.

J Basser: 15:23

And I know two vets that were involved in it. We had one as a current guest on the show when he finally passed away. Of course, actually he went to Vietnam, so he got double whammy the blue water, you know. I mean these guys got blue water, but there's a Project 112 website you can look at. You can also follow a guy named Gerald Cook. Gerald's got a lot of health issues right now, but he's still with us and he's my co-host for a long long time on the show and we did a lot of stuff together. So he was the guy at Fort Greeley, project 112.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 16:04

That's actually the first time I ever heard of that was from you and talking with Gerald, and so when you started to talk about it a little bit, I'm like, well, you know, tell everybody else about it, because that was a while ago that we talked about it. It is.

J Basser: 16:18

And we've done actually shows on it with people and things like that. And of course now it took him a long time. He first filed his claim in 2002 and it took him forever to get to where he's at now. It was one now after another, kind of like the early Agent Orange claims right Ray, Right Right, it's bad stuff. Go ahead, Beth Right.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 16:48

Talking a little bit about Agent Orange. You know the challenge with a lot of these chemicals or at least the older chemicals is that they're not actively doing studies on the chemicals. They have to look at what has happened in the past or what data do we have from those exposed to the chemical. So they're not actively testing these chemicals in the lab to try to see if they cause this type of cancer, that type of cancer or what happens. So when you try to look for research and data that's more recent related to Agent Orange, it's basically a retrospective study where they've collected the old data and now they're trying to make something of it. And so for a veteran that's trying to fight a toxic exposure claim like Agent Orange, if they're trying to say, well, their cancer is related to Agent Orange exposure in the past, they may find challenges finding new literature to support their claim. The one thing I want to mention, for not only Agent Orange but any of these toxic exposures, because majority of these toxic exposures are forever chemicals. They are what they call lipophilic. They love the fat in our bodies, so they stay there forever and as we sweat and as we lose weight or metabolize those fat cells or energy, those chemicals come back out into our bloodstream and so, even though it's not on a presumptive, if you are fighting a claim, you may have to get a private medical opinion, because what has to happen is you need a medical person to look at that veteran's history, that veteran's exposure, and look at the data and what we know about the chemicals to see if it is at least as likely as not related to the exposure. So, yes, they have these presumptives, yes, there is limited data on these, but each veteran has to be looked at individually. You may have a veteran that has absolutely no risk factors but for their exposure to Agent Orange and they've developed some type of cancer. And so, as a medical expert, what we do is we really look at the veteran's history, understanding their medical conditions and see where the Agent Orange or the toxic exposures may have impacted or developed into a cancer.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 19:32

The other thing I want to mention from the medical expert side of things is a lot of these chemicals are what they Any endocrine system is very susceptible to those chemicals and how they may be changed.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 19:58

The other thing is and this is where the cancer comes in is that these chemicals change the way the body, the way the cells function. It mutates the DNA and disrupts the communication on how they're supposed to turn over, and so with the mutation of the gene, that's where the cancers develop. So these chemicals, even 30 years ago, have affected the DNA in the cell and how the cell develops, and then 30 years later you have some type of cancer Again. This is something that case-by-case basis needs to be looked at for the veterans when it comes to service connection, and don't just sit for a presumptive, don't just say, well, it's not on the presumptive, it's probably not related, and move on. You know, sit down, have a discussion with your surrounding veterans, with your spouse, with your family, and talk about it and see, you know, where these exposures or other, even your occupational work, may have contributed to the development of your disease saying that that's a great point, because there is a doctor at Vanderbilt University and I forget what her name is.

Ray Cobb: 21:19

She's written two books already about the agent orange exposure and the side effects and things that are not on the assumption list and she was in a conversation recently.

Ray Cobb: 21:33

She made the point that some of the studies to which the military has done in other groups or organizations do not concentrate on veterans that were directly exposed in Vietnam or any other location. But they have gone to the plants and where it was produced and they have done some research there and they're trying to say that's legitimate. But what they're doing they're interviewing people up in the front office and and up in the front part of the plant that was never around it, that never had anything to do with it, never touched it or came anywhere getting close, and she's got a couple of books out that might be really worth learning. But going back to your point, that was one of the things she said. It was that there was a lot of things that she believes and she's been able to research at Vanderbilt of other problems that are not on the assumption list created by Agent Orange That'd be a good guess.

J Basser: 22:38

Let me give you a little history on that.

Ray Cobb: 22:40

If we could convince you to come on.

J Basser: 22:41

Yeah Well, just have to make get James on too, because he'd have to. Maybe he can coax her into coming on, you know, because she kind of likes James. But Agent Orange, bethany, when NEMA first came out and it first was a very hot topic and the presumptives and everything else, because NEMA took all this stuff and made it into the law, the court case, the research that they had on Agent Orange was basically what the manufacturer had set MSDS and things like that for the chemical. Any field research really wasn't done in the US but it was mostly done in Australia. So they had a lot of Australian information and things like that they had to use. But there was really too much in the US and things like that they had to use. But there was really too much in the US.

J Basser: 23:36

And we're talking maybe what 80s, 70s, 80s when it started blowing up, you know that started popping diabetes and all kinds of crap. What's going on with this stuff, you know? So that's back when the VA had write you a letter. Your claim was not well-grounded. Hit the road, jack, you know. You ever seen one of them, bethany?

Bethanie Spangenberg: 23:55

Seen a lot of them.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 23:57

Yeah, and that's where the veterans get frustrated, especially Vietnam veterans. It's like it was terrible when we were deployed, it was terrible when we came home and now I'm just making another fight. Most people they don't want to deal with it and they just move on and live life without ever thinking about their illnesses because of their time in service accept the fact that they may be entitled to something and that if you have somebody that can guide you through the process and take the stress off, then you can be successful. But, like I said, most of them just put their heads down and just truck forward and they don't want to deal with the government anymore.

J Basser: 24:51

Okay, that's a good point. I want to tell vets a really important point Now. I know Ray's situation with his Agent Orange claim. You know Ray was exposed to Agent Orange and he was the second veteran in the world, the country, to get his service text for Agent Orange exposure Outside of Vietnam. He was stationed here. He was exposed to Fort McClellan, alabama, outside of Vietnam. He was stationed here. He was exposed in Fort McLeod, alabama. Guys, if you're going to file a claim and say you're PACT Act limited to where you're limited to the sandbox okay, you know, to the Middle East and things like that, but you were exposed to the same type of stuff here. You know you can't use the presumptive statute in order to file your claim but you can and you should, if you want to file a claim, use a direct service-connected lane to file that claim.

Ray Cobb: 25:46

You know it'd be a little bit longer process but you'd still get her done Well and also the important part about that is veterans you need to keep in mind when you file a direct exposure or a direct accident. You got to prove who, what, when, where, why and how and that's got to be documented and the best way. I mean, even in my case I had eyewitnesses, I had management, I happened to be actually it wasn't where I knew I was exposed, but I was actually in the chemical training center building. I was on the fourth floor and the lab was on the second floor and our drains were shared by each other. So if something got washed down the drain it came from there right through our photo lab right on out into the pipes.

Ray Cobb: 26:46

And, with that being said, the most important thing in my case and I was very fortunate is photographs. You know it's was very fortunate is photographs. You know it's hard to argue against a photograph. So if there's something that happened and there was a photograph made and it might have been made just with no intent to do anything with it, sometimes you can find those through the Library of Congress. I did.

Ray Cobb: 27:13

I was able to find not only mine but some photographs that a previous photographer had made of the guys actually spraying the Agent Orange, and I think that you know it's hard to argue with a photograph of the guy standing there with three tanks on his back and a little spray gun pointed down at the ground. I mean, yeah, you can't tell if it's Agent Orange or what. But remember, what you have to prove is it's likely, it's not. So if you're in that area and you got it as likely as not and you got photographs to go along with it, then you know you're ready to go. But that's a part of building the case and coming up with what you need.

J Basser: 28:00

Big claims issues. Say, for example, Bethany, you're a former C&P examiner, right? Okay, yes, For example, you have a guy that has a presumptive condition based on maybe it could be Agent Orange, it could be anything, and say they send them to you for a C&P exam, okay, Well, as soon as you see the C&P exam, you realize this guy's got the wrong information because they're asking for a nexus as to how he was exposed to Agent Orange, you know. And so if it's a presumptive condition and you see that it's kind of weird because I mean, basically, if he's already got a presumptive issue, you should be able to do the CMP based on it and try to get a level of severity right. So that's for the issue.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 28:45

Yes.

J Basser: 28:47

But you wouldn't have to be worrying about providing nexus to whether he was exposed or not. Is that correct, correct, okay, what I've seen is I've seen it both ends of the spectrum.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 28:58

Yeah, I have seen it as well. And while we're on presumptives and medical opinions, I want to talk a little bit about the patterns that I do see when it comes to VA medical opinions opinions. The rater may ask about a condition being related to a toxic exposure and for some reason the C&P examiner says in their opinion well, it's not on the presumptive list, therefore it's not service related. That is not correct. Most of the times in the rating decision they will outline the reasoning, they will copy and paste the reasoning why you got a negative opinion. So that medical examiner's negative opinion is typically in the rating decision and you will see in there that the medical examiner opined that the claimed condition is not presumptive of Agent Orange exposure and that is not the way it's supposed to be done. They are not asking the medical examiner to identify whether or not it's a presumptive. They are wanting you to look at these studies. They're wanting the medical examiner to look at what the research has shown. What does the EPA say? What do these other chemical research studies say in relationship to the chemical and the claim condition? Additionally, they want that examiner to look at that individual veteran, look at their history and understand where the claim condition may be coming from. So I see that error a lot and more recently with the Terra, what I'm seeing and I still don't understand this and I'm starting to think it's intentional, but they will ask whether or not a condition is related to a toxic exposure, even though that is not the way the veteran claimed it. So, for example, I actually pulled up the file right here because I want to remember to talk about it there was a claim for sleep apnea and they claimed that the condition was secondary to their respiratory issue and the rater in this case the rater proposed the question or submitted the question incorrectly to the examiner. So the rater in this one says is the veteran's sleep apnea secondary to a toxic exposure related activity? And it's like, no, that's not how the veteran claimed it, they mentioned nothing about a toxic exposure in their statement.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 31:42

And the examiner because they stick to what is in the request from the rater they will go on and provide an opinion saying no, this is not related to chemicals, this is an anatomical disease, or they'll go on to talk about the obstruction of obstructive sleep apnea, and so those opinions we're seeing a lot of those come to us and say, hey, I need a medical opinion. I got denied Again. That's outlined in the rating decision. They'll copy and paste it and you look at those ratings and you're like, oh my gosh, can we just put this back as like a higher level review? Can somebody please just look at this and say this was proposed wrong by the rater? Can we send it back for an appropriate opinion? But I think the reason I think that's intentional is because it's another way for cost control. Deny, deny, deny Money goes down. We're not pushing money out and then it makes a veteran fight again and it's the hamster wheel of nonsense.

J Basser: 32:45

It's a bus. It goes around in a circle. It's like a racetrack. One person gets off, one person gets on. The only thing left is the IC money for the spouse, so it's not new money.

Ray Cobb: 32:59

I've had to show a lot around here too, that the veterans get aggravated and actually don't do it, you know.

J Basser: 33:07

The question she was talking about. Guys, when the writer talks to the examiner and starts setting little notes in there saying, you know, here's what I think you know, or here's a question you know, is this guy's sleep apnea secondary to a chemical exposure and exposure issue right? Basically, if you file the claim based on terror, it shouldn't be there. It should not be there, it should be somewhere else. And they've got our office regional office that handles terror. They sent one of my claims last year to that area the one I just won actually and so we can move in Leading questions and every C&P exam I've ever seen got copies of and I've had a bunch of them. The majority of them do have leading questions because they've got some really sharp individuals inside the ROs. One of the KSAs to be hired in the regional office is the creative writing skills.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 34:09

Yes.

J Basser: 34:13

KSA is called a knowledge, skill and ability. So yeah, but it is what it is. I mean you know exposures are bad. You know you expose a lot of different things. I mean you know you've got stuff in the Middle East, even stuff.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 34:28

Not.

J Basser: 34:29

In the war zone. For example, the military is a dangerous place, especially the US Navy, especially the US Navy, because the US Navy has these very, very large ships. They have tenders, they have ships that have they're floating cities. They have machine shops, they have they're welders, they have argon gas bottles, they have fabricators Everything there available to mankind. Accidents are going to happen in an industrial society, regardless of what you say, it's going to happen.

J Basser: 35:01

It's a dangerous place, especially on the aircraft carrier and the deck of the aircraft carrier. You know people get killed in that job so. And armies got their own, you know they've got their own cities too. So I mean you don't have to be a war vet to get hurt or maimed or whatever. And they've got exposure issues too. You've got a lot of cleaning solvents. You've got things like that. You've got red lead, you've got paints. You've got aircraft carrier decking silica with those jet engines blasting off. You know it takes that stuff up and kicks it in the air. They don't have it now. You used to have the old jet guns when you go get your vaccinations. The only thing that was was a hepatitis passing on machine right there.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 35:49

I will tell you that we have done a lot of hep C and jet injector cases, because there is a study out of California that talks about the hepatitis outbreak associated with the gun injectors and during that time, when they were using them, they didn't even have understanding of hepatitis B virus fully, and it wasn't until the nineties that they really understood what happened. And so absolutely that's just bloodborne pathogen for you and for you and for you. Everybody gets a bloodborne pathogen.

J Basser: 36:29

Well, it's true. It is true, you know. I mean, I guess they got a cure for it.

Ray Cobb: 36:34

now, I didn't like those cure for it now Puts an remission on it. They didn't like those guns.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 36:36

Hair remission.

Ray Cobb: 36:38

Yeah.

J Basser: 36:40

They did. They told my grandpa back in 1958 when they cut him off 100%. He had tuberculosis. Mr Huff, you're cured. They cured him. My mother grew up outside of those TB hospitals they had back in the day.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 36:56

Yeah.

J Basser: 36:57

Yeah, she moved around very. Her uncle Bob moved around a lot to these different hospitals because it's tuberculosis, wow, and I didn't know they'd cut him off. Of course I wasn't involved too much and finally, but I just talked to him one day and I said you gotta be kidding me. They can't cut you off. There's no cure for hepatitis or, I'm sorry, no cure for tuberculosis. He said what do you mean? He told me I was cured. So I got him the phone, made a couple of phone calls and got a couple of guys involved and got an appeal going and next thing, you know, he got one of the largest checks that he's ever issued. He died two days later.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 37:45

He's hanging on for something he was.

J Basser: 37:48

For instance so good man.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 37:53

Now you talked about stateside exposures and we talked a little bit about the Agent Orange being stateside. I want to talk or mention the contaminated water exposures and Camp Lejeune and the one thing that, again, just because the presumptions are not there does not mean that your condition was not the result of an exposure to the contaminated water. You should definitely at least seek some type of review. We offer record reviews. Have a medical expert, look and see is there a possibility that it could be related and see, is there a possibility that it could be related.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 38:38

The data and the presumptive periods for Camp Lejeune are what bothers me the most about that. Presumptive because there's a presumptive period for the contaminated water exposure, like if you were there for a certain time to a certain time I have it here in front of me but I think it was like 87 maybe. But if you look at the data, the data shows that the soil was still contaminated in the early 90s. So why they cut that presumptive period off in the 1980s is mind-blowing to me, because the soil data is still showing or still showed that it was elevated into the 90s. And so even if you are a Camp Lejeune veteran that served there after the presumptive period and you develop something that you might think is the result of the contaminated water exposure. Seek the expertise of a medical opinion or a medical expert in this area.

J Basser: 39:33

There should be environmental impact studies based on that, because if something's still hot, they've got to keep testing. Yeah, and you know, because it's got to be clear and I know a couple of environmental scientists that actually work on stuff like that, you know, and if it's still involved, it's still in the groundwater, you know things like that.

J Basser: 39:52

Yeah, you can get them, but it's still they have to clear it. You know it's kind of like all hands all clear so, but they know this is a smoking gun for the people filing claims. So they got presumptive issues. However, if you don't have a presumptive issue in a situation that's still there, you get that evidence that was still there. You file a direct service-connected claim. You look to get that evidence that was still there. You file a direct service to claim. You look to get that evidence to claim. You can't lose, you're going to win, because they can't say, oh, it's gone now. It's like Ray, you never used Agent Orange, you were never exposed to Agent Orange. We did not use Agent Orange inside the continental US. How many times have you heard that one buddy?

Ray Cobb: 40:32

Oh, I have no idea. I mean, I have probably 10 letters telling me that back from you know the claims division and you know, Agent Orange is known to stay in the soil.

Ray Cobb: 40:46

It's been up to 100 years. It's supposed to stay in the soil 100 years and you're right, it's not going to go away. And you know there's some documentation. You have to do some legwork, guys, and I know, like if you're my age, I mean all this stuff that we're doing here tonight even is all new to me. And when you get into this type of thing you're going to find out in order to get your research done. You know we're going to have to turn to a younger person whether or not it's a grandson or granddaughter or someone of that age group in their 20s to help. We've got a best thing, you know, here you're looking at.

Ray Cobb: 41:29

Yeah, the best place to go to find any of those contaminations if you can get them to release it is. I can tell you two examples of this. One is to go to the Corps of Engineers because they have to keep all these records. Now, as soon as the Corps of Engineers comes back and tells you we cannot release those, that's because they're classified. Now go to your congressman and ask for copies. Now they may send you a copy. One case I did this with they sent the guy a copy of 27 pages of an area that he said he was exposed and they had blackened out 70% of it. Just took a line and blackened it out and said it was because of security.

Ray Cobb: 42:21

So, what we did was sit down and wrote a letter and said well, you know the fact that you blackened it out, the fact that it was national security and the fact that this did happen in 1965, 66 and 67, when he said he was at that location, it's as likely as not that the chemical Agent Orange was used, meaning that there's a 51% chance or a 50% chance and that 50-50 goes in favor of the veteran. But once we turned that letter in, we had an answer in three weeks and he was approved at 100%. But if we had not had that documentation which our congressman got got, that had been blackened out, we would have never won the case. I mean he would have, he would have passed away two years later, his wife would not have anything and you know it would have all been a lost cause.

Ray Cobb: 43:27

But he didn't want to go to the congressman. He told me I never will forget this. He said my congressman is too busy to help me. I said that's his job, you know. Hopefully he's not, and sure enough he wasn't. Now I know he didn't do it. I know he got his aide to go over and get the records pulled and make copies and all that. And yeah, it took 60 days to get them but it meant a home run. So they're out there.

Ray Cobb: 44:04

Folks, you just got to use a little bit of knowledge and thinking who cleaned it up? There's actually. You know you talked about earlier about the United States using it and the different chemicals that are used in the United States. I have a copy and I know you have it too. I think, john, you still have it that back in 1985 or 86, they gathered all these individuals from these military bases here in the United States and sent them down to the Air Force Academy there in Colorado and they had a week no, I had a two-week long training on how to clean up these toxic exposures that were left behind on the base, and Camp Lejeune was one that was named Fort McAleph, alabama, fort Gordon, georgia, but they sent individuals from 120 bases from the continental United States to attend that two-week seminar on how to clean up these toxic chemicals. But they didn't use them. Why did they send them there to learn how to clean them up?

J Basser: 45:24

Well, I had back then, I think.

Ray Cobb: 45:26

I was in the.

J Basser: 45:27

Navy, but I was working for the Army, part of the Army, age seven, and they had an issue. We had guys gone there and we had guys actually went down to Addison, alabama, to put road bars on jeeps for a year. But that was the start of BRAC. We knew it was coming along. By Three years later BRAC would show us that we had that's the Base Red Line McClosure Commitment. They started closing bases and things like that. It's very similar to what's going on now. They closed a bunch of bases, combined a bunch of bases and they got rid of a whole lot of people. A lot of people don't like working for the government, get caught in production. Of course, of course I've been involved in two of them. I couldn't win for losing. That's when I started to go into automobile business.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 46:18

Before we get too far into. I think we have like 15 minutes left or maybe less than that but.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 46:24

I just want I have a whole list of all the toxic exposures that are kind of relevant to the military. So if you're a veteran that's listening and you've heard us this far, I just want to kind of put these things out here, about things that you need to think about. Was I exposed to these? So obviously we talked about agent orange, I think. We mentioned burden burn pits and airborne hazards. We talked about the sand. You know I've had veterans talk to me about waking up with ash on their face or particles on their face. We didn't talk about depleted uranium, but that is an exposure, gulf War, even there's some stateside depleted uranium exposures. Depleted uranium exposures. We talked about the nerve agents like Shad Project, shad Project 112, chemical warfare agents, mustard gas, the sarin, as being a toxic warfare, toxic chemical Radiation exposure, atomic radiation, nuclear, and then contaminated water. We talked about asbestos exposure, which we talked a little bit about, but that's we. I don't know if we really emphasized, you know, the ships and it being on, you know everywhere, okay, and then?

Bethanie Spangenberg: 47:55

the last one is the firefighting foams and the PFAS. Those are different exposures. I think that's all of them. Oh, oil, well fires. Mm-hmm, that's bad why don't you tell us about asbestos?

J Basser: 48:19

I'll talk to Charlie asbestos. The Navy has a rating back in the day called a whole maintenance technician. They still have the same rating and these guys are the ones that actually are the keepers of the ship. They weld. If you get a hold of the ship, you get hit by a bomb. They're the welders, they're the firefighters, they're the ones that actually they run the equipment, all the damage lockers, all the welding shops, all the insulation, everything.

J Basser: 48:53

There's largely a lot of ships, especially tenders and things like that, because they take care of not only tenders and ships, they take care of their babies, the submarines, the destroyers or whatever that vessel is used from the early 20 me all the way up to probably, I think, the if I'm not mistaken, I think the 688 class submarine was the first basically asbestos-free, and so that's the most asbestos-on-the-submarine. Anything before then had asbestos all over the place. I mean, these ships had them in steam pipes, engine rooms, engine compartments, even had them in the flooring in between the engine room and the main decks because it was very hot down there. There's a lot of asbestos-type fumes. There's chrysothil, amesite different types for different purposes. What happens is, after a period of time, the insulation, the lagging they call it lagging, gets crippled or just gets dingy or gets damaged by moving machinery around and sometimes you have to replace the piping and you know you have to remove the asbestos.

J Basser: 50:07

My job basically started with I was more of a project manager for some of this stuff. My job basically started with I was more of a project manager for some of the stuff. I would get the sample and we sent it over to the Environmental Preventive Medicine Unit. We'd sample it and we'd test it and see what type it was. Then we'd set up a containment and rip it out and they'd go ahead and they'd redo the pipes and reweld them and new pipes and things like that and they would re-insulate it.

J Basser: 50:30

You know Mostly done on submarines. That was our big job, our area. You know we were a repair department and the old submarines are ate up with it. You know because a lot of steam pipes Biggest issue we had there was inside the RCs and reactors. You can touch any radiation exposure. You know that's kind of funny. You know that was the only business worker in 1985 that was a certified radiation worker and we had an incident on board one of the subs where we had to remove a bunch of business outside the inner city and I just project managed a bunch of shipyard guys doing it, but we still got it done. Kind of a nice little letter for it, you know.

Ray Cobb: 51:17

John, you helped me with a gentleman with asbestos exposure when you were telling us and Bethany, you may want to comment this we sent him to get an x-ray of his lungs and how it showed up in the x-ray with different dyes and things.

Ray Cobb: 51:33

But in his case which happened a lot with the Air Force and the Army, his old barracks and old bases that were built during World War II and some in World War I back in the late 50s and early 60s, both they came in and they really redid them. They tore out all of the sheetrock, the insulation, put them up and redid them. What I'm thinking of right now is here close to me, northern Field Airfield. At one time when Arle Air Force Base was being developed. The Air Force used that for about four or five years while developing and building oral air force base on what used to be uh count forest and um, he was that's where he was exposed was down in florida redecorating some of these military complexes, some of these barracks. But he won his case just, oh, I think, about three months ago.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 52:39

Wow, just three months ago.

J Basser: 52:44

Back in the yeah. Back in the 70s Back in the 70s and 60s.

Ray Cobb: 52:52

It took five years to do it there was no asbestos abatement. It took five years to do it, and he finally had to get somebody to help him out of California it's some things in life.

J Basser: 53:08

You got an older house, popcorn, siblings and things like that. It's probably got asbestos in it.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 53:15

Hospitals have a lot of it.

J Basser: 53:16

But you know, especially in the colder areas where they've got a lot of steam pipes and steam you know a lot of steam heat sources and things like that You've got a lot of it. I don't know if the building industry has ate up with it, because every pair of brakes made before 2000 ate up with asbestos Mechanics. They're exposed to it. But mostly it's in airplanes. Especially the ones in Vietnam had asbestos in them, but mostly Navy ships. You know. Barracks had them too, you know. But I had a lot of guys on board the Navy that were Mr GQ. They had a nice uniform and they ironed their shirts and things like that and they walked around like they were something special. They just had a clipboard and walked around a little busy all day. They didn't do too much Anyhow. They would get up in the morning and they'd take their little metal wire hangers out and they had a steam pipe above their bunk. They'd take their stuff and they'd poke the steam with the tip of that coat hanger into that insulation. Every time they pulled it out they exposed the whole department. Yeah, I had some knock-down drag outs on people like that. They got rolled up a couple times for insubordination I did, but when we went to see the old man we took care of business. Yeah. So you know I'm kind of. You know I don't. I didn't play too many games while I kept there, I just did a job and tried to go home when I could, so, but as best as some radiation. Now there's not a lot of veterans left alive, if any, that were a part of the atmospheric testing. You know, abel Baker, the one in Arizona, bikini Atoll, there might be a few, a lot of guys after the first test, because the guy actually missed the target. You know, kind of off-way, centered a little bit, landed, supposed to land on top of Battleship Pennsylvania but landed about I don't landed, about a mile and a half away or something else. So these guys went back on board the ships to clean them up. You remember that story. It's a true story. These guys were in trouble Because them things were hot.

J Basser: 55:22

See, radiation is energy emitted from an unstable atom or isotope. That's radiation. It is a source of energy Like an x-ray, gamma radiation. It goes right through you. There's a thing called contamination and people don't understand the difference. Contamination is finally the divided particles of that energy in an unwanted area or location. That's the difference between radiation and contamination. And the initial blast radiated the ships. The fallout landed on the ships. That was the contamination part. So you're not washing radiation off because it goes right through you, but the contamination is what you got to wash off and clean up. Now, sub-breeze, they don't really have contamination, they've just got. You know it's a direct source. Of course I wouldn't leave anything inside the rack apartment anyways on a sub because they've got to take them apart when they get rid of the sub and bury them anyways. Right, remember we've got four barackers too. Fort Greeley had one and it leaked.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 56:46

And we've talked about that quite a bit actually. Yeah, and we've talked about that quite a bit actually.

J Basser: 56:53

Yeah yeah, if you need any advice on asbestos coins, send an email to exposedbed at gmailcom and I can give you some pointers on it. I've got the documentations, my certifications and everything.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 57:18

so I might need to make a resume, you know, I think, of all the exposures I think the firefighters may have the worst ones only because I mean they had the asbestos, any type of fire or smoke, and then the chemicals that they use to put out the fires.

Ray Cobb: 57:41

I've actually seen our local fire department with young people with cancers.

J Basser: 57:45

Well, yeah, that's another one of God's great gifts. Hey, this does smothers. We got a fuel fire. This smothers it, let's put it on it. Well, they did. Yeah, that's A-triple-F they call it. It comes in a big gray container. You stick a hose in it, stick the applicator and it mixes with the water and poof. You got the prettiest white foam there was and I spray so much that stuff is unbelievable. So I spray so much that stuff is unbelievable. So, as a matter of fact, I taught at the Reserve Center for three years up here and we use a lot of it, as well as the cheap firefighter structure for the Reserves, this part of Kentucky. Yeah, I got letters of appreciation for that one too, you know.

J Basser: 58:28

So If you file the lawsuit or if you join the class action on the AFFF and you win, from what I understand I don't think the VA offsets that lawsuit. A lot of times they do. You can look on the list, Like look at this VA's MOS per list per asbestos. You can look at that. It's on the VA's website, vagov or VA whatever. You can look it up.

J Basser: 59:03

And you can look at all of the military's occupational codes, like you know whole technicians or whatever, and it tells the probability of his best exposure. Okay, and this it should be the highest one. You know, because basically you know it's the guys are doing the insulators, things like that are pretty high, really high level Starts doing that, you know. And there's other areas too that are exposed, you know. You know, and there's other areas too that are exposed, you know. But you know, you look at the probability and then you put it away. But something interesting if you work with asbestos and they say you didn't find your performance appraisals you had where you're in the military and look on the back page, It'll tell you exactly what you did.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 59:49

I'm glad you brought that up because we hadn't mentioned that yet, but you're right.

J Basser: 59:55

Yeah, I mean, it's a goldmine. Information and people like me trying to tell you where to go or who to put you know who to decide. I think would work better with your claim or whatever. I'm not going to work your claim before you because I don't do that. You know, I'm a road map. Okay, Go left, go right. I could get an accreditation and start hammering claims, but I'm getting old, but that's what we do.

Ray Cobb: 1:00:26

Are you young workers, snipers?

J Basser: 1:00:29

Mm-hmm. Yeah, but it so you know. But it is what it is. I mean you know it's VA in a nutshell, because you know, I mean it says you change the name of the VA to the DVA, the Denied Venture Administration. It's a lot.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 1:00:51

Well, we've got. We're about out of time actually, so if anybody have any final comments, anything they want to say, no thanks for doing this, beth.

J Basser: 1:01:05

We do appreciate it. We have a new format. I'm going to watch it on YouTube after a while and see how it does. You guys go to Jay Bassler's Expose that Productions on YouTube and you can watch all these shows and you can watch all the latest shows we've done and you see a lot of interesting people and it'll be a good thing.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 1:01:26

I'm excited. Hopefully this is smooth.

J Basser: 1:01:30

It should be okay, and We'll get better at it once we get signed out. You're not going to jump into it and hit home runs first. You've got to take some pitches first right.

Bethanie Spangenberg: 1:01:40

Hey, I'm looking for that home run. Sign us off, John.

J Basser: 1:01:48

All right, that's it. It folks, we do appreciate you watching. On behalf of Bethany and Ray. This is John from Expose Web Productions. We'll be signing off for now good night guys.